tires "cupped"and bad vibrations

I was getting some pretty bad vibes around 50-55 mph so i thought my tires were out of balance and perhaps even needed an alignment. The dealer told me the front tires were cupped and should be replaced. They tried balancing with the road force they have and said they couldn't get it exactly. I've had these tires for less than a year with no more than 20k miles on them. They are 285 duratracs with a 3" toytec ultimate lift kit. Some say cupping can be cause from bad shocka but I put them on same tume as tires..any ideas what else to check? Tie rods? Let them smooth out in the back? Or do I really need tires this early?.. thanks for the help guys

UPDATE:

so I got it aligned (numbers on 2nd page) and another shop balanced and it seemed to run much smoother. some members suggested to jack the front up to check for any play in any of the components up front.

Since it stopped raining and all, I jacked up the front and shook things about to see if anything seemed loose. When i wobbled the tire left and right/east west, it had some play. nothing north south though, so im not sure what that means. i got underneath and shook the UCAs, LCAs, tie rods, axels, and everything seemed fine. then i had a buddy wobble the tire side to side so i can see what it looks like underneath. the tie rod moves back and forth like it seems it should and it transfers all the way to the other side even. so when one side is wobbled, the other tire moves as well. so it doesnt seem like slop with the inner/outer tie rods or anything. i also checked and it seems to rotate the shaft comin out of the rack n pinion to the steering wheel. again i have no clue what this could be, if it even is a problem. some guys said to check there was no movement when i jacked the front up, so im just trying to fix whatever problems gave me the cupped tires in the first place. thanks again all

 

I wouldn't toss a set of tires due to cupping, I'd throw them on the back and smooth them out, as you mentioned. It'll be loud and possibly vibrate slightly when coming to a stop or taking off if the cupping is really back until they smooth out but it's better than spending $500 on tires!

I'd double check your alignment, tire pressure and make sure you don't have a wheel bearing going on you.

 

Found cupping on my tires a couple weeks ago and apparently my upper ball joints are going bad.

 

True, I didn't want to, but the guy at the dealersaid "u got cupping they should be replaced" I know dealers and shops always want to get money but wasn't sure if he was serious or just for money. I don't care about more vibes, loudness as long as it doesnt effect anything. I know when I felt it in the steering wheel it could mess up alignment, tie rods, steering, etc. But as long as having them back there doesn't screw anything up. They said they will do an alignment, I normally run around 30-35 psi so I hope they havent lost pressure all of a sudden. And I'm still new, don't know much about wheel bearings. I'll try searching to learn about them. Any tips what to look for/diagnose?

Upper ball joints, as in uca ball joints?
Oh I also put on new tc ucas to help with alignments of the 3" lift. I wish people still made berry tie rods like all pro :/

 

Diagnosing the ball joint or wheel bearing failure is roughly the same although a bad wheel bearing will likely be noisy. Jack up the front of the truck and try to move the spindle where it connects to the upper control arm, do the same with the lower. There shouldn't be any play in the ball joint. For wheel bearings, it's the same thing except try to move the wheel around without shaking the whole truck. If the bearing allows the wheel to shake a little inside of the spindle, then you have a problem. Tie rods are the same thing, just try to check them for play.

FWIW, I've been chasing a cupping issue for a couple years now myself. I can't see anything wrong with my suspension or any of the other components. Cupping can be tough to pinpoint the cause of.

 

Cupping is not just due to bad shocks, although it is most likely the case on a stock suspension. In my experience, cupping can occur when modifying the suspension/wheels. If the tires are not being dampened properly (i.e. too fast or too slow) the tires will cup. Can you tell me if it is a leading edge or trailing edge cupping? Sometimes identifying the type of cupping will narrow down the possibilities.

Balancing the wheels is important so make sure you get a good dynamic balance. While that is being done, ask the tire tech to check and make sure your rims are all straight. Rotate your tires every 5k miles. Cross rotating the front (to the back) and bringing the rear ones forward.

As stated already, check for play in the steering components and bearings. Any play will cause the tire to wobble slightly and will end up cupping your tires.

 

When I get the truck home, ill check the front out too see if i have play anywhere at all really. For the trailing/leading edge filing, I'm not sure. Ill call the dealer and ask. They said they tried to balance already so ill ask if they noticed if any wheels were bent. Thanks everyone for the help!

 

So i talked to the guy from the dealership. He says he isn't sure whether its trailing or leading edge cupped but its "cupped from the inside towards the outside of the tire almost all the way across the tread". He also said they tried to balance the "least cupped" tire and it wasnt working/couldn't balance so they didnt even bother with the rest. From what they could tell they can't really see the rim/bead and all but it doesn't seem bent. Should I tell them to try to balance the rest even if they are badly worn? It seems like ill screw up the front even worse keeping badly balanced tires on there..but of course i dont rly wanna just go out and buy fresh shoes for the taco either

 

sounds like ball joints, you on stock UCAs?

 

If you're lifted, it's probably just the altered forces of your suspension combined with the different size tire from stock.

These things are carefully engineered during the vehicle design process. When you change them with mods, little side effects like this come up.

My tires on the truck feather some. It adds a little noise, but not enough for me to care. As much as I've modified the suspension, I just accept that this comes with the territory.

 

You should be able to dynamically (weights on both inside and outside) balance the wheel and tire. If its that far off then they need to rotate the tire on the wheel. To balance the wheel, they would have to spin it on a tire balancer. At that point they can look at both the inside and outside edges of the wheel and see if it is true. Make sure tire pressure is good as well. This should be the first thing you get done. Note that if the tire is cupped pretty badly, you will notice a vibration but the high speed vibration should be remedied by the balancing.

 

+1. Stock alignment settings are not always going to give you the same tire wear on a lifted truck as it would on a stock truck. Same goes for the cupping issues.

 

more news from the dealership. they apparently tried to balance the tires but the road force machine was telling them it needed way too much weight. basically too much weight than they normally put on, or feel comfortable putting on. They say they are way too cupped to do anything, it seems like they have been bouncing to cause this.

Should I take it to another place? If they cant do anything with the road force, what can another place do? Im not sure if they tried to move the tire on the wheel but based on how bad they say the tires are, i dont think it would matter.

I know this technically could be caused by the wheels being messed up or the tires. I bought them from an online dealer so there is no store to physically go to and im not sure if they can help me with any warranty, etc. I doubt the goodyear store would do anything either.

If I cant get them balanced anyplace and I keep these messed up tires on the truck, it can cause other problems with the excess vibrations, correct? should I look into replacing them? Thanks again everyone

 

They apparently tried to use the road force balancer to no avail. They normally take 45 min to balance and were working for an hour to get em balanced when they just stopped since it wasnt working. He didnt mention breaking the bead and moving the tire or anything else. Is this just the dealer being lazy, and should I take it to another shop? If another shop finds a problem with the wheel, they can be re-trued and fixed hopefully. Should even badly cupped tires be able to balance? Therefore I should be able to get it fixed enough so the tires wear back even removing the cupping.

 

Sounds like the tire is out of round. Another idea is rotating the tire on the rim. Sometimes the wheels can contribute to the off balance. It's a bit of a long shot though.

 

In the 2+ years I worked as a tire monkey I did not see a wheel that could not be balanced unless it was bent or there was something loose inside the tire. Trying to balance your wheels and then giving up is not a solution. Go someplace else. I would personally bring the receipt back to the dealer and tell them to pay for it and get their balancer/employees re calibrated.

 

sorry ive been a bit busy these past couple days. good stories to follow:

so I go pick it up from the dealer shortly after getting advice from you guys. I decide to take it right to another shop a couple miles away. On the way I can feel the cupped tires in the back a bit but not too bad up front. Then i notice kinda randomly a slower vibration at slower speed. @ around 30mph the wheel was going back and forth at a much slower frequency so it didnt seem like the same out of balance problem from before, but it wasnt constant so i didnt think anything of it...until later.

I pull into this shop and the guy comes out, i tell him i need my tires balanced. he looks and sees the cupped tires and tells me to keep em on the back and i say i understand. he says it wont be perfect but i tell him i completely understand but they are def out of balance and need to get them done. so he takes it back and i can see before they lift it up they are shaking the front back and forth. im kinda like wtf? esp since its swaying a good bit. then a guy comes over with a lug nut in hand saying he removed this one from the front passenger tire by hand. no wrench required at all. were like, wtf?? so he goes back out and gets the tires off and comes back over, he says ALL 6 were removed by HAND.. they werent torqued on at all. i almost shit a brick. i couldve not only fucked the truck up royally if the wheel shot off, but couldve got into a bad accident, injuries, etc. He goes and checks the lugs and everything, no damage, threads are good, etc. Then proceeds to balance the tires. he says they were pretty out of balance, but they didnt need too much weight (i think he said 8oz?) and didnt need to break the bead and move the tire on the wheel either. They didnt use a road force which im not sure if i should care about since they rode much better. We go back to the dealer and i can tell the truck rides a lot smoother. balance helped a lot, no more steering wheel vibrations and i can still tell the backs are cupped some (moreso the sound than the feel of vibration). Told the dealer about the loose nuts and they were all sorry and everything and they reimbursed for the balance. it was only 28 bucks tho. The other shop asked about what I got done at the dealer such as the alignment and they said u shouldnt even have them align it. Im thinking of going back to that shop to have them align it and maybe roadforce it as well (if you think it would help balance it even better?) and then maybe taking those bills to the dealer to tell them i got it even better at this shop, wtf? esp theyre worried sh!tless about the loose lugnuts. I know people make mistakes and nobody is perfect, but that is a pretty big problem. Couldve been a very serious accident or damage done.

Now that I have the truck back I will also jack up the front and check all the suspension/steering parts just to check any slop. Ill also post the alignment numbers to see if they are any good, or if i should go to the shop or whatnot.

Also, for the cupped tires on the back, is there a correct orientation? ill try getting a picture but they are shaped similar to a saw blade with the nubs each sloping towards either the front or rear of the truck: / \ so I think it would make a difference which way to face them, but I just dont know which way is better, do I want the high points to dig first, like a saw blade spins? or the opposite?

 

cupped tires are junk. theyll never be the same.

 

the second part may be true, but its not worth throwing them away.. im not a millionaire so ill take the noise and keep these till the tread is gone

 

what kind of spare do you have? maybe you can swap that tire with your spare tire?