New Kicker Line Output Converter?

Wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything about the new Kicker KEYLOC. It hasn't been released yet. But it looks awesome and should be an excellent option for fixing some of those pesky OEM Head unit EQs.

What do ya'll think?

 

"Detects the frequency range of your speaker leads" ???

 

Yeah. Detects what the factory headunit frequency range is and auto tunes what EQ it has to output a clean flat EQ for your pre amp input.

 

But EQ is for frequency response. Frequency range is bandwidth. Of the speaker leads? How is it supposed to determine that when the speakers themselves will be part of the equation? The wire will have a greater bandwidth than any speaker, unless it's somehow defective.

 

Im using a Kicker LOC with my factory HU and Kicker amp & sub. Works just fine, not sure the need for automatic detection.

 

Nevermind.

They probably meant to say "frequency response of the speaker outputs".

That would make more sense.

 

Five star car stereo has some good detail on what this unit does (video links below). Given the unchangeable EQing by the head units, this unit in theory takes that out so you can feed an amp a flat signal and use your own DSP to tune the system how you want. The frequency measurements help identify if a channel in the factory system is only getting a portion of the frequency range due to HPFs/LPFs in the factory system. This way you don't hook up a full range speaker to a channel that's only getting mids (or whatever).

If it works as advertised, it would be great for adding an amp while keeping the factory head unit. Biggest issue I see is it only has inputs/outputs for two speakers, so even if you use an amp that can take one pair of RCA inputs and push the signal to 4 speakers, you'd only have a limited fader capability via the head unit. One could crudely adjust the 'fade' via front/rear channel gains on the amp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9W0yzmiAx8&t=300s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1NznhfrcXg&t=196s

 

The factory headunit actually boosts bass on the entune unit (Ive only tested 2016-2019 version, not the new 2020)

Here are the curves that I measured, they boost bass, cut around 250hz and the rest is pretty flat.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/3rd-gen-entune-audio-curve-graph.608790/

 

Interesting. That's not the norm for factory systems when the volume is cranked up. I've edited the post to correct that.

 

Yeah, we all thought is was super weird that they did that. Im not sure why they cut 250hz but boosted below that. seems like cutting 80hz and below would have better factory results.

 

Because it sounds more "powerful" that way.

It's something that may sway your decision when buying a new vehicle, the same reason TV's in the showroom have the brightness and color settings jacked way up.

It gets tiring real quickly, I'm running a HPF on my door speakers even though I don't have a subwoofer.

 

But that bass boost is only in the front right? Arent they different signals from front to back. I wonder if a 4 input LOC will fix the different frequency ranges.

 

@5nahalf I know this is an older thread and your measurements are even older. But, were your measurements with the Audiocontrol software using both front left and front right at the same time? If so, I am pretty sure the huge dip you are seeing at 250Hz isn't a cut at all, but an all pass filter. This essentially takes a narrow band and flips the phase 180 degrees, which appears like a huge dip in the response when both channels electrical signals are measured together. They use this to try and get a semblance of a center image in both seats without using more advanced processing common for single seat imaging.

I'm pretty sure the older entune systems use this trick and the KeyLOC should fix this, in theory. I am going to try to give my '21 TRD OR a test listen today with some band limited pink noise to see if Toyota is still doing this on their CarPlay systems.

 

Interesting, yes a phase shift could cause that. If I still had the OEM headunit installed I would go out right now and test by removing a single lead from each side to retest individual channels. Let us know what your findings are. You should post them in the audio curve thread that I linked in my post.

 

It looks like a cut to me.

I used my scope to measure my Entune's frequency response (from 20Hz~1kHz) and plotted the results. One test with the volume set to "5", and another test with the volume to "50". You can see two things going on here: One is the ever-present boost @ 125Hz and cut @ 250Hz. The other confirms @5nahalf 's findings with bass boost at low volume which to me looks like a classic loudness contour. Loudness contour isn't talked about much here, I searched and only found one reference by @dolbytone . I guess that "Bass rolloff" is the new term now. Regardless, if you look at what's going on on the left side of the graph, it pretty much tells the story.

 

All I did was a two minute listen in my '21 on my lunch break. (God, I miss the system I just yanked out of my xB.) Doing a band-limited pink noise midbass test that I learned from Ken Ward at EduCar it does appear that the Tacoma is still using an all pass filter on the midbass. He mentioned during a training that there is a 250Hz all pass filter in the older entune systems. I'm guessing it is probably still the same here.

The stage is difused, but more in front of you when you listen from the driver or passenger seat. Moving your head to the center of the vehicle, the stage completely falls apart and midbass goes to the left/right doors. I'm sure at some point, I will measure the stock signal. Unless I just decide to install the DDX9905S from my last build in the truck instead of giving it to my wife.

Were your scope measurements testing only a single channel or both? It makes a difference. If you measure the signal of both left and right together an all pass filter will present as a cut wherever the all pass filter occurs. This is because the signal of one channel is 180 degrees out of phase with the other at a given frequency and rolling back to in phase as you get further from the center frequency. The transition from out of phase to in phase depends on the Q, just like with equalization. If that dip at 250Hz is there when you measure a single channel, then it is an EQ cut and not an all pass filter.

I also agree that the difference in low end response is likely and loudness contour. This might also be implemented to help prevent damage to the 6x9s as the volume is cranked up.

I appreciate both of your input on this!

 

Single channel test.

I hadn't considered the possibility of an all-pass filter, but next time I have the head unit out I'll test for it. When I first got the truck I did do some testing with band limited pink noise and found that between about 500Hz to 2500HZ the image pulled hard to the right side. I figured it was due to the low placement of the door speakers so I put some wide-range speakers up in the dash, and after a lot of experimenting, I settled on a two-way, 1100Hz crossover with the left dash speaker padded down -1.5dB. Imaging is now pretty friggin solid!

Full disclosure: I'm now also EQ'd and time-aligned.

 

There is decent android room correction software you might be able to run all your audio through, DIRAC comes to mind. Simply sample from listening position with appropriate mic.

your truck is your studio

 

Well... that IS interesting. All of the other reports I had seen on the Tacoma (and other Toyota systems) were that they used the all pass filter to help create a center image. Curious as to why they would also have a 250Hz cut, unless they were battling a vehicle specific issue (resonance, etc.).

While the OE CarPlay head unit isn't bad in terms of interface and speed, pretty much everything is pointing me at picking up an RR2 and swapping in my DDX9905S. This is a known good source that won't leave me battling OE signal processing just to get to a good starting point.

Some of the miniDSP processors are now equipped with DIRAC and I know a few people who use them. Feedback seems to be mixed. Pretty much everyone seems to agree that you can get good results. Those that might be a little less proficient at tuning tend to to the DIRAC results are as good as it gets, while some of the more experienced and capable tuners I know have said they felt they could get better results than what DIRAC is capable of on its own.