6MT throwout bearing and clutch system shenanigans

I’m interested in whatever kit you have in the works

 

With permission from @Kasbien, posting some info on my experience with the Tilton setup, using his prototype parts. As they are prototypes, they may look different from the final product and my install process may also differ. As of writing this, I have about 600 miles on the Tilton HRB and LCE Pro clutch kit

Truck is an '09 X-Runner

This is my first post to this thread, but I have been following it carefully since I started having issues with my CM setup. I had a shop install the CM HRB along with a new flywheel and clutch when I first bought the truck, recognizing the symptoms of a damaged quill. After about 10k miles, I noticed clutch fluid leaking and inconsistent pedal feel. I knew from this thread, and the thread linked below, that the writing was on the wall and the CM HRB was failing.

I documented my CM HRB failure, starting with this post: Clutch Master hydro bearing failure post #100
tl;dr for those not wanting to click the link - the bearing used on the CM HRB is too small for the OEM LUK pressure plate, leading to the pressure plate fingers riding on the stationary part of the bearing, forcing the piston to turn in the cylinder. This destroys the sealing surfaces of the cylinder, leading to irreparable damage and leaks

I considered going back to the factory pivot fork with a URD repair kit, but decided to give the Tilton setup a shot. I did the install myself, instead of bringing the truck to a shop.

Overall, the install process was very intuitive and smooth. Some notes:

• The base of the quill has a fillet, which is larger than the relief cut into the bottom of the Tilton threaded sleeve. I used a piece of PVC pipe around the quill to tap the threaded sleeve and make sure it was seated all the way. The gap was ~10 thousandths, though I didn't measure. Stole this picture and added some labels:
  
  
• I installed the threaded sleeve onto the quill, then threaded the Tilton HRB onto the sleeve until I got the target distance from the front plane of the bellhousing to the bearing, taking into account that the alignment tag on the HRB had to meet the alignment bracket. This means the resolution for adjustment is 1 rotation of the HRB. I didn't have any issue getting the adjustment in tolerance despite this.
  
  
• After the transmission was back in the truck, I verified the installed air gap between the cutch fingers and bearing with a feeler gauge. I measured 0.115", target is .125" +/- .025" per Tilton.
• The braided line that came on the Tilton HRB was long enough to comfortably reach the factory hard line, bent so the end was pointing down and slight back.
• With the bleeder valve open, I had no issues gravity bleeding after a pump of the clutch pedal to get fluid moving.
• Tilton requires that a pedal stop at the point where the clutch releases, plus another half-inch of pedal travel. I used some 2x4s and shims to hold the pedal in position, then tried to rotate the drive shaft by hand with the truck in 1st gear (truck on jack stands). If the drive shaft didnt rotate, I would add a shim to push the pedal further, check the drive shaft, and repeat. Once I found the pedal position that released the clutch fully, I then added another half inch of travel and set the pedal stop to that position. The pedal stop (temporary solution for now) is a piece of stiff rubber tube over the master cylinder rod, cut to the required length
  
  
• I found there is a lot more piston stroke than needed to actuate the clutch. I took advantage of this to adjust the pedal resting position and clutch bite point to preference. I readjusted the pedal stop as necessary.
• I had to add a bumper to hit the ignition interlock switch. Like the travel stop, it's a temporary solution
  
  
• After about 300 miles of clutch break in (replaced the clutch at the same time too, more below) I had to re-adjust the pedal stop. Things have been consistent since

Some final thoughts...

• I replaced the LUK clutch that was installed at the time of the CM kit with an LCE Pro Clutch (which is made by CM, apparently...)
  • I found the LUK clutch very difficult to modulate without shuddering, and the problem got worse all of a sudden around the time the CM HRB started leaking. At the time of ordering replacement parts, I didn't know if the clutch was defective (something that has been reported with the LUK clutches), if clutch fluid got onto the friction material, or if the modulation issues and shuddering was from the failing CM HRB
  • After removal, I found that the splines in the LUK clutch disc could wiggle freely. They are set into what looks like a self-aligning fixture, rather than hard-mounted into the clutch disc. Not sure if the wiggling is normal or not, but it doesnt seem right...
  • LCE Pro Clutch drives really well. I'm happy with it so far
• Since there is so much extra master cylinder stroke/pedal travel, I'd like to either switch to a smaller diameter master cylinder or change the pivot points of the pedal to increase the pedal travel and reduce the force required to release the clutch
  • Factory plastic Tacoma pedal would be hard to modify, so I'm looking at the FJ swap like is outlined earlier in the thread
  • The truck is perfectly drivable, but the amount of pedal travel available to modulate the clutch is very small. I'd prefer a longer range of active pedal travel so driving in heavy boots isn't as difficult

 

I found similar results with pedal feel/engagement. When my CM failed I went back to stock on a clutch that was very painful to break in. The modulation was a lot nicer with the stock set up. Doesn't feel as smooth but slipping the clutch is way nicer.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience Blip. Sounds like the FJ pedal is a key piece to this puzzle. Hell, I've wanted to replace the plastic pedal long before URD sleeves were a thing. I found my plastic CMC had a hairline crack down one side of it and couldn't help but think that pedal would be next.

Since the prototypes I have been fine-tuning and ironing out a lot of the smaller details (that I'm sure most won't notice) because that sort of stuff eats away at me. I'm really excited to be a part of a lasting solution and have people enjoying their RA60/RA61/RC62 once more!

 

Thanks all for contributing info to this thread.

I'm very serious about doing a RC62f swap to my auto DCLB. Sub me in here for any new details on the Tilton HRB and count me in as another interested party for a Tacoma specific kit from them.

If anyone is bored and wants to PM me a parts list for all I would need to do the full swap, it would only help fuel my fire but slowly doing that on my own.

Thanks all!! Great thread.

 

I can help you with the shopping list relative to the Tilton setup if you don't feel like note-taking through 15+ pages. Bill is your best bet for the RC62F aspect.

Eventually I'll have an ad up for my kit and a new thread condensing this thread's information so that it's more digestible.

 

I spent the afternoon reading the thread but would definitely appreciate a condensed parts list. I've also read Bill's RC62F thread and another auto to manual swap thread here. My original plan was to find an FJC RA61 and its manual AWD T-case but the solid evolution of the RC62 have me wanting that instead. The Tilton HRB sounds like a big improvement in all around reliability, too, so I would definitely be interested in your kit when I get that far.

 

Hi.

If you must. But, I’m thinking it might be better though if we kind of clean this thread up a bit. I can re-do some of the earlier posts to kind of have all of the pertinent information right up front.

That’s how I had envisioned this. Just make the bits to make the off-the-shelf stuff bolt on. Hit me up PM. Send me some good pics of your kit. I may have a helpful idea or two for ya.

In regards to clearancing the threaded sleeve for the fillet at the base of the quill. By reading what you posted there, it sounds like you basically just pounded it down till it sat flush without any work on the sleeve itself. If so, I would caution that that would certainly weaken an already brittle aluminum quill. When I test fitted the sleeve on an RA trans it sat flush for me. However, on the RC62F that’s not gonna fly. You’ll be dealing with cast-iron there. And the gap was considerably larger. So, there will not be any way to get around the modification of the sleeve itself to fit. A lathe wouldn’t really be necessary. Honestly, you could probably get away with a piece of emery cloth and your thumb. Just be cautious not to get into the O-ring groove and bugger any of that up.

I would agree that the Fj pedal is a necessary part of this.

 

Just clarifying - In tapping the sleeve on, I didn't get it to seat any further than I did by hand. And I mean to use the word "tap" as opposed to "pound"; I just wanted to make sure I had metal-to-metal contact between the base of the quill and the sleeve and that the sleeve wouldnt slide further down later

Although I didnt take measurements for comparison, I did a test fit of the sleeve sans o-ring. With the o-ring, the sleeve came to rest in the same position during final install. I probably could have forgone the tap based on the test fit

 

Cool. You get what I’m saying tho, right? You don’t want that sharp edge digging into the base of the quill.

 

Welcome back sir. If you'd prefer to sift through this thread and neaten things up then by all means; go for it. My goal is to just make the topic more digestible (regardless of who does it). Along the way I kept my questions based in this thread so that everyone was able see them and the responses that they generated. I can PM you though if you'd like.



The quill + threaded sleeve subject has plagued my mind for some time now... It's a simple issue turned overly complex. Why?

1) With the casting fillet size on the quill varying between transmissions, there is no garuntee relieving the sleeve would even work for each and every person. The fillet remains raw casting while the quill is machined (at least from what I can see in the photos), meaning that fillet size is pretty loosey goosey. And for the Tilton sleeve, there isn't much meat there at all before you start machining into that o-ring groove. You're honestly just kissing it. But if you were doing it on your hobby lathe at home with the transmission on the floor next to you, then that might be sufficient because you're able to confirm the fitment as you go.

2) There's also the problem of me even getting my hands on the Tilton sleeves in order to offer this "relieving service" as part of the kit. They're backordered just like every other Tilton part it seems. I'd have to order a big batch of them to try and get ahead of any interest that this kit generates on Tacomaworld (which sucks even more because I'm Canadian).


Other options on the table to combat this issue:

1) Make a small collar that sits over the quill fillet and gives the Tilton threaded sleeve a flat pedestal to sit on. (No need for me to buy bulk from Tilton)

2) "Delete" the o-ring groove in the Tilton sleeve entirely to provide a one-size-fits-all amount of clearance around the casting fillet. (Would have to buy bulk from Tilton)

3) Reverse engineer Tilton's sleeve and produce them myself with the groove moved further away from the fillet. But to be honest, as a machinist, Tilton did a very nice job with this part and I doubt I could compete with their price point as a really small fish in the pond. (Time consuming)

4) YOLO and just let the chamfer sit on the fillet as is.


I could use some insight at this point as I'm very back and forth on this. Doesn't help that I haven't dropped my own transmission yet to see it in the flesh...

 

In for future kits. What exactly needs to be made? That raindrop shaped bracket and a sleeve that goes over the quill or does the tilton threaded sleeve fit the quill?

 

Yes and a few other bits and pieces that I make. Tilton manufactures the threaded sleeve that fits the quill as is, with the exception of how it currently bottoms out with a chamfer on top of a radius. Not ideal.

 

Option one is basically what I was thinking. Must be a hard material. I’m thinking stainless. Must be as thin as possible, but still get the job done. I’m imagining less than 10mm. Possibly thinner. Need to leave enough room for adjustment for gap.

I have my RA trans just sitting. So, I can have a look easily enough.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think option 1 as well. Seems like the best universal way forward in a timely manner. The o-ring in the threaded sleeve would help to keep the collar from sliding around.

If you can help with measurements again that would be amazing. If not I can go for a drive to checkout a RA60F for sale a few towns over. I'll send you a PM.

 

Anyone got their transmission on the floor? This is the last piece of the puzzle. Willing to pay for your troubles or you can have a free kit.

 

Push came to shove...

Time for more R&D.

 

Farking hell…. Pulling mine now for this crap would’ve micrometered whatever you want!

 

We just missed each other! All good. I should have done this from the beginning honestly. Having the unused OEM part in front of you is the next best thing to having access to the Toyota engineering drawings. The 20% restocking fee will still be worth it when I return it to the dealership. I never inquired originally because I assumed it would take months to arrive but they had one ready to go in the warehouse actually.

This is a good opportunity to really dial in the little things and to get some good pictures as well.

 

Progress Update #3

Made some prototype adaptor seats/pedestal spacers (whatever you want to call them) in CAD to adapt the Tilton threaded sleeve unit to the Toyota bellhousing quill while keeping added thickness to a minimum. Waiting on some material to arrive this week and then I'll make them out of metal and decide which prototype is best suited. I'm thinking this will work out and be the best way going forward.

As it stands, this SHOULD work just fine with RC62F 3rd Gen bellhousing as well but I'll need someone to confirm for me. Like I did with the previous testers, just pay the shipping and I'll send you over a kit.